Cogito, ergo sum

[Dave~]

I think I am here. Do you agree that since you think, you exist? I think, therefore I am.

Or as Descartes would say, "I am; I exist."

Is it certain that I exist in a first-person POV because I have reasoned it in my own mind? Surely, if I have the power of thinking, it is self-evident that I exist.

Thoughts?

[James Lewitzke]

(I think my Universe does NOT Exist thread over at WT inspired this thread, but I'm not sure )

Anyway, I believe that it takes more than "thinking" to be required to exist. For example, how about the characters in a computer game? They believe they exist, right? And at the same time, they're just figments of the program.

[Dave~]

Yeah, WT might have started this...or maybe you started this, just in a different place....conspiracy?

Since the characters in a game are programmed, I doubt that they have cognitive thinking. Hence, they only exist as a program.

But then again, do I only think what I've been programmed to think and I only exist as a program?

What else would it take to determine existence?

Is it a physical body or environment? The brain, and thinking, is what tells us about our physical body and the environment. So if it's something external, we really can't exist without the thinking that would translate the external. A program has no external, so do we?

[James Lewitzke]

Hmmmm.......

Maybe existence doesn't really exist, according to the way we define "existence". Maybe what "existence" really is, is something beyond what humans can comprehend.

[Dave~]

Now we're getting deep!

If we can't comprehend existence, what is it that I'm doing right now as I think, feel how warm the wood-burning stove is, and etc.? Am I experiencing existence?

[James Lewitzke]

What we feel, smell, touch, etc. are actually only electrical signals interpreted by our brains (OK, Matrix quote right there).

Does that mean we exist though? Or are experiencing existence? I don't think so.

[jbjbw]

A bacteria probably doesn't ponder it's existence. But it still exists in this world anyway.

[James Lewitzke]

Originally Posted by jbjbw

A bacteria probably doesn't ponder it's existence. But it still exists in this world anyway.

If humans cannot grasp the meaning of existence, what makes you think bacteria even has a chance of pondering?

[Blue Wulf]

Qouting Rachel Weiss in the movie "The Mummy" "I believe that if I can see it and touch it, then its real". Although for me most of this is true, I would like to believe that there is something more out there, that there are people with the ability to do something beyond the ordinary, like move things with there mind, or see into the future.

[Blue Wulf]

I believe we are our own people and that we all do exist. I mean we all do different things, see and feel in different ways, but all together the majority do these things the same way, like we all hear music in the same way, and we all read and write in the same language, and most importantly we all interact in these ways. How could we not exist if we interact with eachother?

[James Lewitzke]

Originally Posted by Blue Wulf

How could we not exist if we interact with eachother?

Well, if one computer character interacts with another computer character? Does that mean they both exist?

I think it's impossible to be able to PROVE that we exist in this universe.

[Dave~]

Originally Posted by James Lewitzke

What we feel, smell, touch, etc. are actually only electrical signals interpreted by our brains (OK, Matrix quote right there).

Does that mean we exist though? Or are experiencing existence? I don't think so.

If something is being interpreted, then there is the existence of the mechanism of interpreting. If a pre-programmed computer interprets, it does so by the parameters or rules set down by the programmer. Even if we are mere computers that are programmed to act, react, and interact a certain way, there is still existence since all these external things are happening.

A non-cognitive program will still exist, not because of itself, but because of an existing force (programmer if you will) has set it in motion to do whatever it's programmed to do.

Hence, even just doing anything because of programming or because of cognitive thinking proves that there is an existence, even though those that exist may not be able to explain how they function or why they exist.

I am!

[James Lewitzke]

Well, who's to say that something is actually being interpreted? Us?

[Barcs]

This is a fun topic. It really makes you wonder. Personally, I am conscious therefor I exist, is how I perceive the whole thing. All that I know in this world is that I am conscious. Now as to whether everything else is simply a perception... If that is true though, I would think that I would have some kind of control over this alleged reality. Things would be more interesting and more peaceful. Unless it was programmed FOR me. Maybe this is just a program and in order for me to "win" the game I have to fix the world?? Nah... It seems like the deeper I think about it, the deeper it gets and the more factors are involved. Hell, I can't prove that I'm conscious. I can't prove that I'm anything more than a computer program, except to myself.

There was an interesting invention a few years ago called the "Brain-O-matic". It was designed exactly like a brain, except with silicon instead of flesh. It used the same signals and was routed the exact same way. "It" was able to think on its own and even had an argument with the scientist that created it that he could not prove that it wasn't real and wasn't conscious. Maybe it was? The scientists got pwned in the argument by the brain btw.

[James Lewitzke]

Originally Posted by Barcs

This is a fun topic. It really makes you wonder. Personally, I am conscious therefor I exist, is how I perceive the whole thing.

I think everyone can agree that this fun thread exists

Originally Posted by Barcs

All that I know in this world is that I am conscious. Now as to whether everything else is simply a perception... If that is true though, I would think that I would have some kind of control over this alleged reality. Things would be more interesting and more peaceful. Unless it was programmed FOR me. Maybe this is just a program and in order for me to "win" the game I have to fix the world?? Nah... It seems like the deeper I think about it, the deeper it gets and the more factors are involved. Hell, I can't prove that I'm conscious. I can't prove that I'm anything more than a computer program, except to myself.

Maybe we can't even prove we exist to ourselves. As I mentioned before I think it's very possible that we can't prove what it means "to exist", it's something beyond what we are capable of perceiving.

[Conspirasist]

This is a good topic but i havent got a good answer for it. I will tell you
about a tv show i watched years ago though.

I starts out where the people are all leading normal lives but as time
goes on, things start going bad. The crime rate goes way up and wars
are breaking out all over the place. People are getting murdered, stolen
from and raped. Life is in a shambles.

To make the story short, at the end, a boy turns off his video game and
leaves.

I think it was a twilght zone show or something like that.

It does make one think though if our life is nothing more than a computer
generated game.

Just my 2 cents.

[James Lewitzke]

It's alright if you don't have a "good answer", the topic is philosophical in nature IMO .

I think the show you're referring to is "The Twilight Zone", I believe I've seen that episode before too (a looooong time ago, years). It reminded me of The Matrix, I can't believe that movie is almost 10 years old now, seems so new .